I first *met* Jon when he wrote to ask me about removing tile from a laminate countertop. Heck if I knew, but before I could even get around to answering, he emailed me back saying he’d done it already. He and wife Trixi also were onto de-layering the floor. In reality, their renovation so far has meant: Peeling off a circa-2005 update. Oh, and did I mention that Jon is hilarious? And that the pair is admittedly “obsessed”? Read on for more about their wackadoodle adventure to uncover the true blue (avocado green) bones of their 1962 kitchen …
I’ve strung together Jon’s emails — which came to me over the course of about 6 weeks — into this amusing and informative timeline:
Hello, Pam! [Hello, Jon!]
We’re currently doing a Retro Renovation of our kitchen. We’re peeling up the crappy, mid-00s vinyl flooring and restoring the glorious 1962 linoleum, and getting everything back to period specs. We just started, and your site has been an inspiration, a godsend for those of us with midcentury-era homes.
The problem is that our gorgeous vintage Formica countertops have been covered with a layer of granite tile with a “sandwich layer” of drywall that has been GROUTED TO THE FORMICA. I’m wondering if any of your readers have a good method for removing grout from Formica — I’m about ready to start chiseling away the tile, but the grouted drywall scares me — I don’t want to damage the Formica, if possible.
I did a pretty thorough scouring of the site and I don’t see anybody else talking about the same problem, so this might be a “new thing” for your site, but I bet with the popularity of ugly “greige” granite tile, we’re not the first people to run into this problem with their renovations!!
Hopefully you or someone on your site can advise! I will pose the question on the comments section there, and in the meantime I’m going to check out that citrus stripper mentioned. Thank you!!
Precautionary Pam writes back and reminds: Be sure to consult with professionals — you’ll want to know if there is any nasty asbestos or lead or whatever in whatever stuff you disturb. Jon replies:
Oh yes — we did some asking and all of this tiling was done in 2005, along with the vinyl floor we ripped up and all the bathroom “modernizing.” The realtors did it to try to sell the house, which was a foreclosure. All asbestos-containing material was abated at that time as well (some old tiles in the basement and upstairs, etc). So anything hazardous is thankfully all gone!
Good, Jon. Again, dear readers, remember that there can be vintage nastiness in the materials, layers and products found in our old houses and anything old we put into them. Get with your own properly licensed professional to assess what you have/are dealing with! For more info, readers, see our Be Safe/Renovate Safe page.
So I ask, Jon and Trixi, what is “your Retro Renovation story.” Jon ponders and replies:
Well — the story is long and tangled, but to boil it down to essentials, I bought the house — a tiny 1962 ranch bungalow in Robbinsdale, MN — with my ex years ago as a fixer-upper in my old childhood neighborhood. The relationship didn’t last, but the house did — and when Trixi — is her name, is there a more retro name in the universe? — and I got married we kept saying “we’ve got to do SOMETHING with it.”
It’s a great little house in a neighborhood we both love, but we’ve always wished we had one of those mid-century flat-roof dream houses instead of our very modest mid-century modest. One weekend a couple months ago, we visited the home of our friend Jake Rudh. Jake is kind of our local mid-century expert, and he owns one of those gorgeous mid-century dream houses. He gave us the grand tour — it’s a time-capsule home in the best way. Original floors, original countertops, original everything.
The next day, my wife and I were lamenting about our own house, which had NOTHING original after a mid-00s “sell this house” remodel. I pointed out a little spot under the cabinets where the vinyl flooring was peeling. “Check this out,” I said. “Underneath this hideous vinyl flooring is the original laminate. Should I just yank this vinyl up a little?” And so I did, and so it began.
Once we started ripping up the floors, there was no stopping us. We stumbled across your website, and our little hobby became an obsession for both of us. Now we know everything there is to know about NuTone Food Centers and hudee rings and Dishmasters.
We’re about 1/3 into our remodel and we’re having a blast. We’ve gone from wishing we could move — to loving the house we’re in!! There’s a lotta work left — the cabinets need a total rehab, the walls need paper or paint, and we’re dying to find the rest of the avocado vintage appliances. But we’re determined!
Haha, this is my favorite line so far:
Should I just yank this vinyl up a little?” And so I did, and so it began.
Isn’t that ALWAYS how it begins? Before I get a report on the counters… I hear from Jon on the floors, too:
You can see the gorgeous linoleum, there, underneath the vinyl flooring. The ugly white vinyl was put in shortly before I moved there in 2005 by a realtor — he did a really shoddy job (didn’t even go all the way to the edge in places). He (thankfully) removed the previous layer of probably-asbestos-containing 70s vinyl flooring prior to laying this junk down — the linoleum, underneath a layer of flooring glue, is still clean and in great shape… You can see two layers of previous remodels. A horrible 70s remodel where they put in laminate cabinets and dark-orange tiles (there was a corner of one stuck to the formica) and then a newer “let’s sell this dog” remodel in 2005 that gave us those granite countertops and the new, white, plastic appliances. You can also see a roll of the original Formica I found in a closet in the basement — [Edited; Pam here: Jon talks about the potential for asbestos in old flooring like this and the research that he did as he made his decisions etc. Readers: Do your own research — get with your own properly licensed professional to assess the material safety issues of the old materials in your home so that you can make informed decisions how to handle.]
Hello, Pam! I sent you an email a month or so ago about our forthcoming kitchen retro-fication. We’re still proceeding apace — just wanted to shoot you an email showing you our FINALLY FINISHED floor! We stripped off all the ’05 vinyl flooring, and the old ’62 linoleum beneath looks magnificent.
Next step: countertops. We’ve been lucky that the realtor who sold us this (and did the remodel in ’05) did such a shoddy job — it’s been much easier to remove their work. The other interesting bit of news is that we noticed our tub was chipping a couple weeks ago. Being the person I am, I chipped away a bit more — and LO AND BEHOLD, underneath our white tub is a PINK TUB! I suspected we had a pink bathroom originally before the same ’05 remodel that got everything else, and I was right — I asked our next door neighbor, who’s been there since the late 60s, and she confirmed it, and was shocked to find all the pink had been removed!! So once we finish our kitchen, it’s onto the pink bathroom.
Yes, it’s coming back. We already found a pink sink at a salvage yard in the right shade, and noted (and you might want to note too somewhere!!) that Kohler *still has* a pink toilet in the correct shade of rose available! So we can get that retro look AND be environmentally conscious. And the paint on the tub from ’05 just comes off with paint stripper (we found a nice safe one with no fumes — no ventilation in there!) Anyway — once it’s all done (it’ll be a bit) we’ll send on photos, but I thought you’d get a kick outta those floors. What a pattern!
I finally started the daunting task of pulling up the ugly marble tile countertops. Everybody around me has been so overwhelmingly negative — I heard “Why would you want that ugly stuff?” about the Formica. I heard “there’s NO WAY you’re going to be able to pull that up yourself — you’ll need to call in the pros.” And most importantly and most often, I heard “there is no way you’re going to be able to save that old Formica.” But like lots of people on your site, I’m sure, I hate hearing “no you can’t” or “no you shouldn’t!” Enough people kept telling me it was an impossible task that last night, while waiting for my wife and daughter to get home, I started hacking away at it with the totally wrong tools — I don’t have a pry-bar (yet!!) so I just used a hammer and a Phillips screwdriver. And in ten minutes I managed to pull up half a tile and a bunch of the wonderboard. And apart from a few screw-holes (I’m already planning how to fill them and paint the pattern over the top — I can do it! I’m a designer by day) and a few minor nicks, the Formica underneath is STILL INTACT. And looking hot!
(OH — one last thing — if any of your Minneapolis readers are wanting a pink bathroom after the Pink Bathroom article in the Star Tribune a few weeks ago, point ’em here: City Salvage. We went there to get our pink sink — and they’ve got like seven more where that came from, AND a pink toilet. It’s all in the basement — which is open, weirdly, despite being kind of creepy and dark. We got our sink for super-cheap — the guy is dying to get rid of that stuff. He also has, somewhere (I couldn’t find it, but he swears its there) old pink enameled METAL TILE — a whole box full. So if anyone’s wondering, point ’em there!)
You get a good sense of what we still have to do — those laminate cupboards from the 70s were once blonde wood, like the kitchen you showed today. But we have a working vintage Frigidaire fridge — in Avocado!! Goal: all matching avocado appliances. We didn’t have our camera at the salvage yard! We haven’t bought it yet — waiting for this next pay period, but our plan is to head there on Saturday. The guy told me there wasn’t a lot of call for avocado sinks, so there wasn’t much risk of it selling before then. It had a hudee ring!! A little bent up on one corner but I have high hopes I can gently hammer it back.
Hey, Pam! So the first half of our countertop rehab went fine. Pic attached. Small screw holes — otherwise the laminate is in PERFECT condition.
The second half, though — there are TWO HOLES cut into the countertop. My wife and I spent half the day despairing — would we have to re-laminate? I cracked a hunk outta the laminate for one thing (it’s gonna take some gluing and patching), but these holes are daunting and we couldn’t figure out what went in ’em. The left hole — it was the size of one sink section, but there was no drain attachment under the counter, nor any electrical. I finally figured out it was probably one of these here — a recessed cutting board! [Yes, Jon’s tip led to my post – Pam] They make ’em in EXACTLY the size we need to fill the hole, so even if it wasn’t, I’m getting one. I love the steel edge! Will match the avocado sink with a gloriously intact huddee ring we found at a salvage yard this weekend. The OTHER HOLE though — we knew it was something electrical, ’cause there was a capped-off electric cable underneath it. We agonized and agonized and searched and talked to the neighbor who vaguely remembered something “weird” being there, and realized what it once was — a NUTONE FOOD CENTER! Of course, we’re going to find one and put one back in there. How could we not??
The laminate on the backsplash is covered with a pretty daunting layer of thinset under those tiles — I haven’t found a decent method for removing thinset on the interwebs yet (apart from heavy sanding or chunking it away millimeter by millimeter with a chisel or something), but if I can figure something out, we’re game. Our fallback position is to find some subway tile or 1″ tile in a nice green tone or pattern that matches the rest of the kitchen.
Thanks again so much for your awesome site. If we hadn’t found it, I don’t know if we’d be this determined to do this, and do it right!! My goal is to build a ’63 kitchen SO AWESOME (well, and then a pink bathroom SO AWESOME) that you’ll wanna feature it on your front page. It’s what’s driving us!!! We’ll keep you updated. I do have to say — this is the most fun ever!
Thank you, Jon & Trixi. Yes: It’s all some fun, isn’t it. Hey, I have one question, though: Are you sure the floor and appliances are original to 1962? Reader Patrick did some research, which he shared with me, that indicates that GE did not introduce Avocado as a color until 1966. I am not super expert on dating colors and such, but if I had to guess, I’d say the floor and appliances came in the same time as your 1970s cabinets – although the Formica reads 1960s to me… In any case, I would definitely not change that floor and I love the avocado appliances. Fantastic job all the way around! Keep us apprised of how the Retro Renovation continues — and thank you for all your tips — I’ve been able to milk your emails for, like, five stories (two more yet to come).
Annie B. says
Perhaps choices stem from who you are, where you are (personally and geographically), and what you’re able to do about it.
Also, perhaps, how thick your skin is……..in the world of granite and greige (no disrespect intended), I can’t expect everyone to love my huge, turquoise, bowling pin-shaped lamps. No, these lamps are not in any way beautiful or finely crafted, but they do give me much joy.
Personally, I think that’s what it’s all about.
MIFroggies says
I think it is a matter of quality and durability.. The plastic fence is not lasting well right now, and won’t last very long. Just like my “80’s” kitchen…it was such bad quality to start with, and abused, that even 30 short years later it had to be gutted. I am sure out in some millionaire’s house somewhere, that another “80’s” kitchen is gorgeous and high quality, and will look good even years from now because it is being taken care of. Color combinations are subjective to opinion, just as physical beauty or lack of is.
In every generation there is truly high quality workmanship in say, furniture. These items will last, and 50 years from now people will think that was representative of the era, when really it just is that it was good quality to start with. All the bad quality stuff will have fallen apart and no longer exists. The durability of the material is important too. Even wood and metal can deteriorate over time, but glass sure lasts well, as long as it does not get broken. My cheap particle board end table will have disintegrated by the time I am 90, and my really nice Stickley solid wood end table with the leaded glass will probably still look gorgeous. My great grandkids will say…wow, look how they made it in the old days. When really there is cheap junk in every generation, ha ha, but time erases most of what the masses owned, and the higher end stuff endures. Castles may be crumbling, but are still seen. The houses of the peasants are long gone. I really doubt my stick built house will hold up a few hundred years either.
I can respect the fact that even a house, or a pencil! can outlive me. It is sobering to reflect that an inanimate object can outlast a human being. That is why when a person does leave something behind, like a great work of art, or literature, or a cathedral, that we can almost universally appreciate its beauty and skill that went into it, because it endured…even if we don’t agree with it, or like the color!
mobile_home_dude says
Hey there Pam!
I have a bit of a “rant” that has been festering for quite some time. Possibly you won’t want this comment posted.
Been lurking for years. I really commend you on all the work you do to come up with these resources and keep things updated, etc. It’s got to be a tremendous committment.
Now for my festering rant: I noticed that this post got an unusually large amount of responses – I’m wondering if it is because of the avocado. It’s been my experience that avocado tends to be one of the first things people mention when they make fun of or shudder at 1970s design. I’ve never understood why – it’s just another color.
I also wonder why it appears to be okay to talk about bad/ugly/hideous remodels from anywhere in the 1980s through now. Isn’t that just as disrespectful as using those same negative terms for 1950s and 1960s design? Really, are the burgundy/hunter green or navy/cream combos any better or worse than green/gold or aqua/pink? They are just something that decorators and merchants came up with to get people to feel as if whatever they already had was outdated and no longer stylish. We see it happen every 7 to 10 years, right?
Also, why are some things considered classier than others? For instance, almost everyone denigrates shiny or polished brass. Because of course antique or brushed is better taste, right?. Also, Lloyd said avocado is considered “bad taste”. Why? Who makes these decisions?
I guess I just have an issue with the opinion that some things are considered classier and more acceptable than others simply because a lot of “design experts” say so. Why does most of society let these “experts” tell them what they should like instead of just admitting what they truly like? I think for me this kind of follows what was echoed in a few of the comments above in that I tend to rebel against what I SHOULD or MUST like.
There are things I don’t like about almost any era of design, but I don’t automatically consider them ugly or tacky – they just aren’t what I like. For example, there is nothing wrong with black or black glass appliances, I just wouldn’t want to have them in my kitchen simply because I don’t like the color black in such large amounts. But I’m not going to look down my nose or sneer at people who have them. If it’s what they like, good for them.
I applaud your edict about not making people feel bad for their design choices, but I think it still happens is a sneaky way. The people who post here aren’t made to feel bad, but a lot of these very same posters make plenty of snarky comments about the design choices of previous owners. This is considered OK? Unless they were decorating simply to be able to sell the home (which happens, I know), the chances are these previous owners liked what they did to the home and considered it attractive. Their taste is not any better or worse than ours, just different.
I could go on and on (and on and on and on….) but this post has gotten to sound as if I don’t like a lot of the people who post here, and that simply isn’t true. It just bothers me that some eras gett A LOT MORE respect than others and it is apparantly okay to be disdainful of anything from the last 30 years.
In case any of you are wondering, no I don’t have a special affinity for the 80s, 90s or 2000s. As you can tell by name screen name, I live in a mobile home, which is a whole other dimension of design choices, let me tell you. I simply feel that ALL eras should get the same respect.
By the way, I DO have a sense of humor. I am rarely this serious, but I had to get this out.
Thanks for reading my rant. It’s 1:49 a.m. and way past my bed time.
pam kueber says
hi mobile home dude, i really appreciate your taking the time to comment. it’s funny, but i actually woke up with a though along these same lines only from a different direction (i’ll post/explain later)…. anyway….i have a bunch of meetings this morning so can’t write a long response right now. i will come back late today. suffice to say: i think you make very, very valid points. this will be a fun and gratifying topic to explore. thank you.
kate mckinnon says
Interesting. I have also had a rant building inside me (which I will not share here) based around a friend’s assertion that every person is beautiful, This, while technically true from a cosmic standpoint, does not mean that every person’s arm should be modelling jewelry on EBay in an extreme close-up.
The idea that everything is equally awesome is, I think, false. I don’t need a designer to tell me what I think is elegant, or beautiful, and frankly some color combinations are more exciting to us because of how our eyes see colour.
Orange and green together will always provoke more of a neuroresponse than beige carpet with brown chairs, because of how we are hardwired. The use of contrasting colours actually wakes up our brain, chemically. And a handforged iron bed will always be intrinsically more awesome in every way than a cheap, screwed-together shiny brass bed from China.
It is certainly more Zen and more politically correct to say that every arm is lovely, and every colour combination is equally delightful, but in actual point of fact, that is not true.
I can accept what you say about taste, but politeness, and an allowance for different personal aesthetics, does not in fact extrapolate to the idea that everything is ACTUALLY as good as every other thing.
I adore mobile homes, if they are vintage. Because part of the beauty of earlier eras lies in how well made things are. And my personal revulsion to the 80s and 90s stuff goes far beyond dull colours that do not engage all of my neurons, and into the decline of crafsmanship.
Older stuff is simply… better. On the whole, everything was well made and crafted with an eye to line; is it wrong to prefer this overall aesthetic of quality over the tickytack crap that we have been inundated with since the early 80s?
Personally, I always get annoyed when I get the “Everything is equally awesome and beautiful” lecture, but I know that society has agreed that we have to say it to each other every fifteen minutes.
Everything is not made of equal amounts of awesome, no matter how many times we say it is.
pam kueber says
I really think it is all relative. Maybe some people want “calm” not “exciting” – but that is not “beauty” or “better” or “worse.” That said: I tend also to believe what Malcolm Gladwell said about 10,000 hours of “hard work experience” making you better at something. When I took my collage class last year, the women who I would consider true artists made little pieces of crap look gorgeous in about 15 minutes. I worked an hour and my artwork was a mess. This is my own critique; they were very kind and encouraging; it was a very positive joyful experience. Oh: My artwork was still “art” btw, because that is what I was aiming for. Anyway: My main point is that here on this blog: I don’t want to have a place where we criticize or even “critique” others for where they “went wrong.” Especially email-type environments, that immediately goes bad — words come out wrong. This is probably coming out *wrong*. I believe the Buddha said, essentially: Stop focusing on what others are doing *wrong*. Work on our own self. He also said, essentially: Everyone is doing their best, given where they are at their point in life. Be the change you want to see in the world — we will never get anywhere “ranting” at people. I want to do it all the time, I assure you, and I “slip” — e.g: Greige. But it onlly makes me feel … self-righteous, I think. I doesn’t change the mind of anyone who likes the look. It only makes them turn off to me.
I believe Trailer Dude was right in that we should not call things from the past 30 years “hideous.” What kind of word is that? That’s a fighting word. Can we be more specific, please, and dispense with the judgment. She says, being judgmental. 😉
Haha, here we go!
kate mckinnon says
And I greatly apologize for the lengthy comment. I’ll just keep quiet, and gaze out the window, at my neighbor’s white plastic fence, sagging and shiny, relic of the ’00s.
pam kueber says
ha! I long commented back! I have to go to work-work now, though!
kate mckinnon says
I guess my simple question to you is this:
Is my neighbor’s white plastic saggy cheap fence really just as awesome as the nice, straight, mellow, solid, well-made wood fence right next to it? Is it really just a matter of taste?
pam kueber says
The white vinyl fence was chosen because it offered a benefit that was valued by the homeowner: Likely: No required maintenance, at a price they considered affordable. I can understand that. I may or may not have other values that are different, but I understand their choice.
MIFroggies says
I agree with you Pam, I did the same thing, made choices in my kitchen remodel based on whether I could afford it, rather that lasting quality.
Jerry says
Your comment about liking vintage mobile homes made me smile.
A few years back, my brother bought a 1974 mobile home. It had not been remodeled.
I fell in love with it! It is a 70s modern.
I wish I could get some pictures, but I’m not nearby. I am posting to reassert the notion that, just because it’s a mobile home, doesn’t mean it can’t be as charming as a bug’s ear.
Jen8 says
I’m late to the party, but that counter laminate was (is) in my parents home built in 1968. I remember wiping off the Formica inked label when we moved in ( the house was built on the empty lot next to our 1920’s house). We had bronze Hotpoint appliances and maple cabinets in a medium finish with bronze hammered handles. Forgot what the original vinyl floor was. AND a few posts above, there was a mural on one wall.
LoquaciousLaura says
MORE PIX from Jon & Trixi as you go! Yay!!!!
Gabbie says
I love this post! I heard someone say the other day that maybe pastel pink or blue bathrooms are fun but that she was pretty sure that “no one wants avocado green!”. LOL!!! If I felt like stirring up a little trouble, I ought to send a link back to this post.
pam kueber says
Stir stir stir, Gabbie. Send this one, too: https://retrorenovation.com/2009/12/03/mitchell-and-webb-avocado-bathroom/
Heidi Swank says
Jon and Trixi,
If you can’t find appliances that match, you might want to talk to someone at a hot rod shop. They will often do custom painting. We had a rockabilly hot rod guy repaint our 1956 refrigerator. He picked it up, dropped it off, and did fixed a rusted spot and a dent/scratch for about $400. It looks like it is brand new now.
Jason Durand says
Keep up the great work peeling back the true history of the house. The real estate agent who owned my house ripped out the original kitchen replaced it with granite plastic and chipwood. Which I am slowly gutting out nothing original left there. But luckily he was to lazy and cheap to do a proper effort on the bathroom and loungeroom this made restoring them a lot easier.
In regards to Lloyd’s comments you have to remember that my father’s generation generally considers the 50’s and 60’s junk instead they prefer either totally modern or art deco from their younger days. Those who grew up in the 80-90’s will have a fond spot for that era.
As I am also interested in fixing up old 50-60’s cars as well I see the same thing happening in this hobby the model T restorers are dying off and some 80’s cars are know getting restored by my younger friends.
To each their own I say. I think it is in the back of all our minds when eventually we sell or die that things will get destroyed. For example my house is on a huge block with views 96% chance it will get bulldozed subdivided and Macmansions built on it until then it is my little slice of paradise.
CindyD says
Jon and Trixi, I love what you’re doing! The fact that so many here have fond memories of your floor (we had the red version in our first house) guarantees you will too. Your countertops are cool, and I’m hoping the retro decorating gods smile kindly on you in your search for the remaining appliances!
The more I live in my mid-century home with its cabinets, tiles, and other fixtures, the more I appreciate the era for its trades people and their craftsmanship.
Kersten says
Wow! I am amazed the previous owner just went right over the top! Even more amazing is that you can get off the ugly layer without ruining the treasure beneath! Oh, how I’d love to find something this cool when we tear up the vinyl flooring in our kitchen! I’ve tried to peek a little under the refrigerator area, but I saw plywood. I’m guessing my chances of finding cool floor under the plywood is minimal, right? Have fun! It’s off to a GREAT start!